tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post6534409679515263199..comments2024-03-25T05:26:47.764-04:00Comments on The Peerless Power of Comics!: The Sub-Mariner For The 1990sComicsfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-89964440354611685432022-05-25T05:20:23.273-04:002022-05-25T05:20:23.273-04:00That's an excellent observation, Chris--I wond...That's an excellent observation, Chris--I wonder if DC readers have the same issues with Aquaman and those in his kingdom? Yet the same concerns perhaps plague both in terms of such architecture which doesn't appear to have safeguards for predatory fish like sharks, mahi-mahi, et al., which must see a series of open portals (or similar easy-entry chambers) as akin to feeding ports where a likely meal or three can be found!<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-65185590339058895922022-05-24T18:31:18.518-04:002022-05-24T18:31:18.518-04:00I forgot to give Byrne one big kudos in my earlier...I forgot to give Byrne one big kudos in my earlier post. If you like at the one image where Namor, Nita, clone-Dorma, and other Atlanteans are underwater, it's like a miracle. They are actually SWIMMING. They aren't standing or walking on the ground floor. And their posture clearly suggests swimming, and not flying.<br /><br />Even the architecture makes sense with portals/doors even at the tops of buildings, because of course there'd be since everyone was underwater and could swim. You wouldn't want to force people to enter only at the bottom and then swim up (or worse - use stairs!).<br /><br />Byrne didn't set many issues in truly underwater scenarios, but my memory suggests that panel was not an exception. Byrne must be one of the few artists who knew how to draw these scenes right.<br /><br />I wanted to call this out because it was a complaint on John Buscema's issue set in Atlantis during the great Stern/Buscema run. No matter my complaints on whatever lost opportunities Byrne neglected, this was an A+ effort on art.<br /><br />ChrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-6663623736831951962022-05-15T09:49:08.447-04:002022-05-15T09:49:08.447-04:00Holy Hannah! I knew the idea had precedence but se...Holy Hannah! I knew the idea had precedence but seeing your list is a shocker.<br /><br />I guess I reckoned this would just be a "fin on dry land" for possible plot points. As monarch of Atlantis, Namor already has the same clunky handicap that T'Challa (and now Thor) has, where his butt is supposed to be on the throne being majestic, not zipping around the world having adventures. An embassy-corporation would allow an excuse as to why he "just happened to be in New York".<br /><br />Big Murrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03311467081145732439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-30034437192059709202022-05-15T07:07:54.687-04:002022-05-15T07:07:54.687-04:00The problem with that approach, I think, Murray, i...The problem with that approach, I think, Murray, is that it, too, has the "not another one" aspect that we've seen with other characters throughout the years as different approaches were rolexed through. The FF's Future Foundation... the Xavier Institute and its staff/faculty... Dr. Strange's Metaphysical Institute... Peter Parker as a high school teacher... the Black Panther taking a hiatus from his throne to become an Avenger... the Inhumans' royal family exploring avenues to rejoin the human race... Tony Stark as Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., Secretary of Defense, head of "Stark Solutions," you name it ... Captain America resigning to become the world's "top cop"... Bruce Banner having control of the Hulk's body and power... the list goes on.<br /><br />I think an embassy/company role for Namor that represents Atlantean interests would suit him, yet he faces a similar problem: aside from using his power to lift a damaged and leaking oil tanker to a nearby land mass or spearheading Atlantean visibility in surface world affairs, how does <i>the Sub-Mariner</i> figure into the setup? How will this Namor interest comics readers looking for adventure? Doom has the luxury of inserting his power into our affairs with near-impunity even as he keeps a tight rein on his position and subjects in Latveria--yet the faculty of the Xavier Institute have to drop what they're doing to suit up as X-Men... Peter's spider-sense has him either leaving class abruptly or calling in sick... T'Challa has to <i>somehow</i> explain to his people why leaving Wakanda in the care of a regent (e.g., M'Baku) is a <i>good</i> thing... Captain America is <i>not</i> Steve Rogers... and Strange eventually decides that "business suits and corporate maneuvers aren't [his] forte." How does Namor reconcile his activities as the Sub-Mariner with the role he must present for himself and for Atlantis for the long haul? Perhaps equally important is asking ourselves what writer would be able to successfully pull that off? Personally, I'd love to see it attempted.<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-68090513867301607762022-05-14T18:42:48.841-04:002022-05-14T18:42:48.841-04:00It was the mercurial whimsy of Namor that always k...It was the mercurial whimsy of Namor that always kept me at arm's length from the character. Thor, Hulk, Thing (to name three) all have volatile tempers, but a reader could quickly suss what those temper triggers were, and otherwise their characters remained understandable.<br /><br />One appearance could have Namor declaring unrestricted war on the surface because someone peed over the side of a sailboat. The next appearance has him a righteous and heroic Defender. Then the next writer tries to sit him on the Atlantean throne full of majestic dignity. Completely unpredictable and all over the shop.<br /><br />So, Byrne's blood imbalance idea was a darned good one. Create a stable character that readers could rely upon...whatever that character might be.<br /><br />The problem with this series for me was the clandestine corporate path. Namor as a shadowy power broker wearing Armani suits had "not another one" vibe.<br /><br />I think instead it should have been a sane-ish Namor using a variation on this idea to build a very visible embassy-company arm for Atlantis. Rather than remaining a confusing mystery-myth hiding under the ocean, Namor tries to make Atlantis a corporate and political force in surface world affairs. Use the surface world's own tools against them to preserve the oceans, rather than summoning Giganto again and again. Sort of a blend of Dr. Doom and Latveria's place in international politics and Tony Stark's bazillionaire clout.Big Murrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03311467081145732439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-78431161891256376202022-05-14T06:20:57.324-04:002022-05-14T06:20:57.324-04:00M.P., you make a good point about the Illuminati N...M.P., you make a good point about the Illuminati Namor, blunt with his opinions and apt to lash out if the collective thinking of the others was headed in a direction he was against; yet I felt that his "attitude," for want of a better word, added an interesting element to the group, and his own decision-making proved both <a href="https://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2014/02/i-am-from-attilan.html" rel="nofollow">incisive</a> and <a href="https://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2016/07/the-enemy-within.html" rel="nofollow"><i>de</i>cisive</a>. Yet it's that very ambiguity, I felt, that made it difficult for writers to get a handle on him and support him as a character capable of ruling a kingdom without declaring war every so often or abdicating to shake things up a bit. Was Namor the ruler that the Atlanteans needed? If not, where was his place in the world--as an Avenger? As a champion of the environment? As an X-Man? As a corporate figure? As a Defender?<br /><br />Chris, from your many insightful points one resonated with me in particular: Byrne's tendency to slow things down and play out a plot in lengthy stages (i.e., a number of issues), bit by intriguing bit, something that might work well in a graphic novel or a format such as <a href="https://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2014/09/at-worlds-end-waits-maestro.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Future Imperfect</i></a> where the end is clearly in sight but not so well in a monthly book where a startling final page is depended on to bring the reader back in thirty days rather than any indication that things overall are headed to a culmination. What was Byrne's game plan regarding Namor, I wonder? Obviously to make him a more steady and interesting figure in relation to those he interacts and deals with, but beyond that? How did he want to handle a Sub-Mariner <i>series</i> as a sustainable book?<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-83409312068925482262022-05-13T21:56:15.226-04:002022-05-13T21:56:15.226-04:00I enjoyed the series when it came out, and Byrne&#...I enjoyed the series when it came out, and Byrne's art is always great. Namor as a corporate "king" was a good angle. And I liked the oxygen imbalance in the blood angle to explain Namor's wild mood swings and inconsistent portrayal over the years. <br /><br />I know some people hated the duotone effects he used in later issues, but I thought they worked well for the underwater scenes. Byrne was definitely trying to do something different.<br /><br />Yet I think Byrne "failed" in certain ways to set the series up for future success. <br /><br />First, he never actually succeeded in any kind of corporate intrigue and conflict. The Marrs twins story was it. Byrne really didn't both setting Namor up against the many, existing "evil" corporations (or even the more neutral kind that might still make an intriguing foil) like Roxxon Oil (despite some teases in issues 2 and 3). I think the Marrs twins had potential, but they took over the book and didn't really deliver the goods in terms of antagonists. Using them slightly less but still building on their plots would have been better.<br /><br />Second, he failed to create an intriguing rogue's gallery for Namor. Namor had an existing rogues gallery from his earlier days, but his main villains were either dead (Destiny, Dr Dorcas) or limited to the Atlantean sphere which Byrne choose to stay away from. But all we got were either one shot villains that wouldn't be used again (like Sluj or the Nazis), villains that weren't exactly in Namor's league (like Headhunter), or villains borrowed for a single storyline but belonged to other titles (Super-Skrull). The stories were entertaining, but having villains that would repeatedly show up to menace our hero again and again is an essential element in superhero comics.<br /><br />Third, he utilized mostly long form multi-issue stories that ate up the title. In around two years worth of issues, he told actually around 5-8 stories. Ditko could have told 24! I don't mind long story arcs, and some of Namor's arcs are very good. But a few one and done issues that introduced new villains or story elements would have been a good change in pace.<br /><br />Now I know its hard to actually fault Byrne for this. Writers before and after failed to position the Sub-Mariner for ongoing success. Despite the character's popularity, people seem to miss the magic of making it an ongoing solo title (and let's face it, this applies to a lot of other characters as well). But I think Byrne not only had the creative chops to succeed in this, I think his initial ideas were very, very good. So it's disappointing that ultimately very few things continued out of this at the end. Telling some interesting stories isn't any real failure, but I think his set up had great potential but only executed partly well.<br />ChrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-34691321322114740982022-05-13T21:13:22.272-04:002022-05-13T21:13:22.272-04:00I've come across this somewhere before...the i...I've come across this somewhere before...the idea that Subby's amphibian nature, a chemical imbalance, leads him on occasion to what surface dwellers might call extreme behavior. On a personal note, I happen to be bi-polar, I'm treated for it now and am okay but things sure could get pretty darn weird back in the old days. (Don't ask!) So the explanation does make a lotta sense to me.<br />But that same explanation of a chemical imbalance, while in my case a great relief, takes some of the mystery out of the character and maybe the potential menace that he brings to bear. You might not agree C.F., but I liked the Namor of the Illuminati, who was mad, bad, and dangerous to know. A guy who definitely had (and occasionally exercised) the potential to be quite the supervillain. Heck, the first time I saw him was in Super-Villain Team-Up! I didn't know what his deal was. The ambiguity fascinated me. Still does, and maybe no wonder!<br />Still, I agree this was an interesting take on an old character, and well worth a look.<br />Good or bad, or somewhere inbetween, the Sub-Mariner was always one of my favorites. <br /><br />M.P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-25718731149474469212022-05-13T19:37:01.585-04:002022-05-13T19:37:01.585-04:00Indeed, lordjim--in the story it's made appare...Indeed, lordjim--in the story it's made apparent that Caleb, whose life as a young boy was saved by Namor, named his vessel after Capt. McKenzie's ice-breaker. But, giving the whole thing further thought, I may have jumped to a conclusion as to Namor naming his corporation after <i>Caleb's</i> boat rather than his father's; it seemed a logical assumption given Namor's regard for Caleb and his daughter, but do any <i>Namor</i> readers have a definitive answer? (I imagine Caleb would be pleased either way. ;) )<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-26029760115089466922022-05-13T14:42:25.403-04:002022-05-13T14:42:25.403-04:00Oracle is actually the name of Namor’s father’s sh...Oracle is actually the name of Namor’s father’s ship. lordjim6Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com