tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post5798627643958694193..comments2024-03-25T05:26:47.764-04:00Comments on The Peerless Power of Comics!: I Stand With The Thunderbolts!Comicsfanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-29567638894140309752020-10-27T01:30:17.979-04:002020-10-27T01:30:17.979-04:00For the record, Atlas/Goliath was not the only mem...For the record, Atlas/Goliath was not the only member of the Masters of Evil that Hercules got another shot at. He fought the Wrecking Crew again after that beating, but had to overcome some serious PTS before getting his groove back and whipping butt (See Thor #418, 1st series).DamonOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567271838563386766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-66599908519485218492019-01-07T13:53:12.871-05:002019-01-07T13:53:12.871-05:00The first twelve issues of this book when the Aven...The first twelve issues of this book when the Avengers were thought dead were great. The end of the first issue when they are revealed to be the MoE is one of the few great Marvel moments of the 90s.<br /><br />Unfortunately, the redemption angle never worked after the Avengers and FF came back. The characters were not interesting enough to care about as heroes (and much more interesting characters like Deadpool and Venom had redemption themes going at this point). <br /><br />I never felt this way but I have a friend who complained that it was really hard to follow Busiek's Thunderbolts if you weren't familiar with (at the time) 30+ years of Marvel history.Jarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-39508711683149658362019-01-02T20:44:12.807-05:002019-01-02T20:44:12.807-05:00The redemption tale is a grand one, no question. ...The redemption tale is a grand one, no question. But, I guess I just find myself balking at some characters. The examples Warren cites are essentially decent folk that required some effort to buff out the rough spots. Hawkeye being another "grey character" that stepped across to the light. Then there are characters where buffing away their rough spots would leave nothing but a a pile of shavings and sawdust.<br /><br />And again, you're both correct in that seeing the villain doing time would be boring. And I'm not a real fan of such incarceration in reality, either. Maybe that's why I was intrigued at the Thunderbolts period I referenced where the cons volunteered for "Hero Detail" in order to help spiff up their records. Few, if any, of them were anticipating joining the Avengers upon parole, but the working off their debt with this extraordinary community service appealed to me. I guess I was one of the few who liked it, since those Thunderbolts were shelved and then the title returned with some sort of greasy "black ops" Suicide Squad of nefarious scofflaws. <br /><br />Warren: Fixer and Moonstone (and Titania) appeared a few months ago in the 12-issue mini-series, <i>The Defenders</i> (Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Daredevil and Jessica Jones).<br /><br />Sales always rip the coherency out of stories. Depending on which title is selling best dictates if Thor beats the Hulk or vice versa. Why didn't the Avengers arrest the Thunderbolts? I guess the Thunderbolts comic was making decent coin at the time. Fixer and Moonstone were no longer protected by being in the book, so they were fair game to use as goons and take a shellacking. <br /><br />Big Murrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03311467081145732439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-37245144354124359602019-01-02T20:11:50.271-05:002019-01-02T20:11:50.271-05:00Conversely, I think I'd come down on the side ...Conversely, I think I'd come down on the side of the Thunderbolts here. Part of it is that I've always been a sucker for a redemption arc, though after reading the article and comments here, I think part of the issue is that there really only is 'the court of public opinion' in these fictional universes - the opinion of the writers and editors in how to use the characters, and the opinion of readers in how they react.<br />That, and the fact that while there might be a certain satisfaction in showing that the system works and criminals pay their dues to society, watching supervillains stew in their cells wouldn't make for an exciting story; not all the time, anyway. As CF says, they need to be periodically broken out of prison (or the spooky gothic asylum) to menace our heroes. How much more interesting is it if they're broken out and decide for themselves to alleviate past misdeeds - to go straight? We've already got arachnofolk with guilt complexes, thunder gods learning humility, canadian killing machines fighting their past, a giant green rage monster who's shrugged off more pardons and second (third, fourth, fifth?) chances than I can remember... room for any others?<br /><br />That last thought brings me to Fixer and Moonstone in Big Murr's comment. How far back did that happen? Hearing about it makes me tired. It's an example of what might generously be called the 'cyclical' nature of comics narratives; or the futility of continuity when fly-by-night writers struggle to make their ephemeral mark with characters from their comics-reading youth - no matter how or where those characters were when last seen. It's one of the big problems with those redemption arcs I like so much: sooner or later you know some hack bozo is going to rewind them right back to cackling red-eyed villain.<br /><br />Just ask Flint Marko.Warren JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11743987856127631574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-53090590703559636682019-01-02T18:44:39.701-05:002019-01-02T18:44:39.701-05:00I tend to agree with you, Murray, about hardcore v...I tend to agree with you, Murray, about hardcore villains such as Power Man, the Sandman, et al. being able to wipe the slate clean as far as their past actions are concerned, particularly when they don't strike one as being the type to turn over a new leaf; then again, wiping the slate clean is part of the point of doing prison time. But lengthy prison stays have always been a slippery slope in Marvel stories, since prison sentences by necessity must be completed in record time so that even the most dangerous villains committing the harshest crimes can be back on the street and menacing our heroes a.s.a.p.<br /><br />When the Thunderbolts were formed, the Masters (including Goliath) were listed "at large," even though you'd think that most of them would have been captured following their battle with the Avengers. But let's say for the sake of argument that during the time inbetween, Goliath indeed was tried, convicted, and sent to the Big House to do his time. If he indeed served his sentence, Hercules would have no legal grounds for going after him (though he doubtless derived satisfaction from it). I don't think I'd have any problem with Goliath deciding to turn over a new leaf, if that's the case--but those weren't the circumstances under which the Thunderbolts were formed by Zemo Jr.<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4142199900369238852.post-29922856577665014282019-01-02T10:13:31.823-05:002019-01-02T10:13:31.823-05:00I'm with Hercules on this one. Erik "Pow...I'm with Hercules on this one. Erik "Power Man/(no name)/Goliath" Josten's career was too dark and nasty for an "Oopsy. Sorry" to cut any mustard. <br /><br /><i><b>Give him "the Gift", Herc!!</b></i><br /><br />Maybe if I had ever followed the Thunderbolts beyond snippets and occasional issues, I'd be more on-board with their road to redemption theme. But, I never did and so all I see are hardcore villains getting a free pass. If they were truly repentant, they would follow Mach 1 and let an actual court settle matters, not the "court of public opinion". Maybe I'm cheating with my "crystal ball", but only months ago in <i>Defenders</i>, Fixer and Moonstone were full-on goons for hire, off to take down the aforementioned Defenders. So much for the path to heroism.<br /><br />(PS I have to confess I did collect the Thunderbolts when Luke Cage was their keeper and the team had nanites controlling them on these heroic work furloughs. Because, I guess, having them on a leash made more sense. And the time travel story arc was great because though they were villains, they weren't psychopaths and knew they had to do the "right thing" to preserve themselves and reality/history.)<br /><br />(PPS and after the solid storytelling art of John Buscema, the efforts of Bagley et al looks painfully florid)Big Murrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03311467081145732439noreply@blogger.com